Oct 1, 2023

133: Don’t Stand In The Way of Your Business Growth and Transition, Rick Vanasse

Rick Vanasse advises CEOs and rising leaders as Chair with Vistage, a global membership organization. He’s like a CEO whisperer, creating space for leaders to address strategic questions from an organizational, personal, and business standpoint. Rick chairs Vistage groups in DC, Baltimore, and Annapolis, Maryland.

Listen in as Succession Stories host Laurie Barkman talks with Rick about growth and self-awareness as a leader; taking a strategic view from the balcony; and why strategic transition planning done well includes the emotional and personal side, not just the practical stuff. “Not doing strategic transition planning is as dangerous as not doing strategic business planning.”

Enjoy this episode about not standing in the way of your business growth and transition with Rick Vanasse.

 

Find Rick Here: Rick.Vanesse@vistagechair.com

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TRANSCRIPT:

Laurie Barkman
Rick Vanesse it is so great to be with you. We met in person about a year ago, and I had the best time meeting you and your Vistage group, which we will talk about. And I wanted to welcome you to Succession Stories. So I’m glad you’re here.

Rick Vanasse
Oh, thank you, Laurie, it’s wonderful to meet you. And, and I, you know, I want to say that you had a big impact on both of my groups. And I know you’re working with a number of folks. And it’s really important work that you’re doing. So I want to thank you.

Laurie Barkman
Oh, thanks so much. Let’s start with you. And Vistage, our audience might not know what Vistage is. And they might not know what a Vistage chair does. So why don’t you explain for us what Vistage is all about?

Rick Vanasse
Absolutely. Yeah, I’d love to tell you the story. So Vistage is actually the oldest and largest CEO organization in the world, started 65 years ago in Milwaukee, by a fella by the name of Bob Norris, who was a small business owner, who made a decision that went the wrong direction. And I decided to invite seven friends, fellow business owners to lunch to talk about what happened. And when he did, he realized that, you know, he appreciated their feedback and recommendations, but it was the questions they asked him about his issue. And he said, “Boy, if we had had this conversation four or five months ago, I wouldn’t have made the decision I did, and I probably wouldn’t be facing bankruptcy.” And he said, “Oh, thank you, I’ll pick up the tab.” And one of his one of his colleagues said, Wait a minute, I want my turn in the barrel. So they said, Let’s get together next next month, same time, same place, and you talk about your issue. And that’s Vistage. So here we are 65 years later, 45,000 members worldwide now in 35 countries doing that same thing every month meeting for a full day a month. And I also meet one on one with each of my CEOs for about 90 minutes, doing executive coaching, business advising kind of work as well. So it’s a great organization and a lot of fun, frankly.

Laurie Barkman
It’s an amazing organization, I’ve had the privilege of speaking to over 20 groups over the last couple of years. Each group is unique. But one of the things that I find in common is these are continuous learners, people who are invested CEOs or the second-in-command type of folks, CEOs or the others in the executive team from a developmental standpoint, they have a built in advisory group. And isn’t it special that you can get out of your head, right? So a lot of CEOs, I know when I was a CEO, I was in my head a lot I didn’t have anyone to really talk to, because you can’t truly be transparent on all facets. And whether it’s with your spouse, or whether it’s peer group? How do we find these people? How do we actually open up and Vistage gives a wonderful forum for that.

Rick Vanasse
It really does. I think you said it well. And, and all of us, they refer to us as chair. So all of us vistage chairs work very hard to create a safe space, a place where people can be vulnerable. That’s why we have no competitors and in the same group, and it’s so that people can come in and talk about what’s really going on. Sometimes it’s personal issues. And as we all know, what’s happening at home, face it, we bring to work and vice versa. So and it’s the kind of conversations that sometimes you can’t have even with family members, you know, I’m thinking about succession. I’m not sure my son or daughter is ready for the job. And here’s what I see going on, what thoughts do you have? So it’s it’s those kinds of very confidential, personal conversations about owning and running a business, that you’re with 12 to 15 other small business owners CEOs, and, and hearing their insight because they’re living it too.

Laurie Barkman
Yeah, it’s a shared experience and to get input. So what is what is something special that you try to do with the Vistage groups when it comes to helping them think about growth? Yeah, how do you get CEOs to to focus forward on some of these core themes around growth?

Rick Vanasse
I think growth is the key word for what we do in our group. And it really starts with business growth. And so each chair has certain criteria we’re looking for for members in our members selection process. And one of mine is business growth. And there’s several reasons for it. One is, it is a common theme for all of my members, I’m looking to grow, even nonprofits, nonprofits are looking to grow just as much as a for profit business. So growth of the businesses is really core. And that leads to the second type of growth that most of my CEOs face and that is organizational growth. And so as a business moves from a $3 million, to a $30 million, or $300 million business, the role of the CEO changes dramatically. And if you’ve not done it before, you may not be aware of how that role needs to change the role that you are in as CEO. And so a lot of what we talk about are ways in which you grow your business. What markets you might explore what acquisitions you might explore, do you have the right key people around you? And so that leads to organizational growth, which is you as a CEO, and the people that report directly to you. So, you know, at what stage do you move from a, an accountant to a controller to a chief financial officer who was providing strategic advice. And that clearly has to happen. The third area of growth is personal growth. And so with those two things, come the realization that, “Oh, my gosh, I’m getting my own way. Why is that? Why? Why am I standing in my own way? Why am I having a hard time letting go of the day to day work.” We call it working in the business, and moving more of my time to working on the business. And so that’s a very common theme for all of our folks, is this shift from working in the business to finding the time to be working on the business. And what I see is, it’s really growth that’s underneath all of that. And those CEOs who can make the shift, who can see the business opportunity, who recognize the organizational opportunities, and it’s tough, you know, you have to maybe take your own pay cut in order to hire someone that you know, can help grow your business. And then that personal growth element. So it’s it’s a real combination of growth and learning to work on the business. Yeah, let’s

Laurie Barkman
unpack this a little bit. I want to rewind to the CEO, recognizing that maybe they are standing in the way of the company’s success, right? That’s a really difficult crossroads, don’t you? Don’t you see from your experience?

Rick Vanasse
Absolutely. Absolutely. And so let me share with you, Laurie, a little bit about that personal growth side of things. Because with every member, I’m meeting for 90 minutes a month. And what we’re exploring is the business issues and opportunities. And then what does that mean? What are the implications for them as a leader, so we’re looking at their personal leadership? And there’s an analogy I use with all my folks, a fella by the name of Ron Heifetz wrote a great article called getting on the balcony. And so when folks asked me, What’s this one to one thing, right? What’s this all about? The analogy I use, it’s about you and I together, going from the dance floor, to the balcony, to have a conversation. As the two of us watch you dance on the floor. And sometimes we have to go to the second balcony. And when we go to the second balcony, we’re looking at not just you dancing as a CEO Owner, but we’re looking at the people around you, and how you’re interacting with them. And occasionally, we go to the third balcony. And at that point, you see the entire ballroom, the whole ecosystem, the whole market. And at that stage, you’re really looking at patterns and you’re able to see things and you’re observing things, that when you’re only focused on your feet down on the floor, you’re just not going to see why do I use that analogy? Several reasons. One is it’s getting gaining that perspective of working on the business. So that’s clearly part of that analogy. But the other core part of that analogy, is having that conversation as we’re watching the CEO dance, having a conversation as we’re watching the CEO’s behavior, and that’s really where we form our self-awareness. And so self-awareness is a really critical tool for people to have to understand how they are leading or not their business. And so what I have found is some people, self-awareness is really easy. Maybe you know where they got it, I don’t know. But they very quickly understand how they are behaving and what they are saying all of the time in the moment, and can respond and adjust accordingly. Other folks, it’s just the opposite. And so a lot of my one on one work is really working with people to build that self-awareness. So that they can be so that they can see how Oh, my gosh, you know, every time there’s an issue with a client, guess who jumps in to save the day, me. And sometimes it takes a while for them to even see that they’re doing that, as opposed to saying, You know what, I need a really top notch client liaison who’s going to take care of those problems. In other words, get to the balcony, start working on the business. So it’s that kind of a developmental stage of self-awareness that ties into your behavior as to whether you’re working on the business or in the business.

Laurie Barkman
Yeah, I like that analogy of the balcony a lot. I think that’s a really good visual. And it also is interesting to think about what’s holding us back.

Rick Vanasse
Yes.

Laurie Barkman
Do you have any CEO examples or folks in Vistage that have been holding themselves back and then there was a transformation that you witnessed?

Rick Vanasse
Yes. Yeah, I’ve got several actually. So one was very similar to what I was describing, where we had a CEO. And when you’re when you’re a small company, you know, when you’re in that $10 million $15 million range, you are working 80 hour weeks, you are very much in the business, you cherish the few hours, or one or two days a month, that you’re able to work on the business. But what this individual was doing is as issues came up, they found themselves on the client floor, answering all the questions, solving the problems for the clients giving direction to their employees. We talked a lot about that. They agreed, yes, that is the behavior, how do I change that? Let’s get a really good COO in, a good number two who’s going to relieve you of that kind of day to day responsibilities? It never happened. Either they were not empowered, or they just found it very frustrating when they came into that environment. And so they were never able to pull it off. And this went on for two or three rounds. And guess what the business didn’t grow, they were unable to grow the business if the CEO has to decide everything and do everything. So that’s kind of a classic case that I’ve seen multiple times, I’ve got other examples where people have become very aware of their behavior, and were able to lead very differently their their senior team, and let go. And that’s probably one of the hardest things is when you let go to someone who, you know, you’ve gotten to know who you trust, who brings a lot to the party, but they’re going to do it differently than you would. And that’s the first test. The test comes when that number two, or that head of business development approaches the contract conversation differently than you would and so, you know, a lot of my time is helping that CEO to just stay back, bite your tongue, you know, and how do we all learn? We learned by either succeeding or failing, and so you gotta you gotta let that person have some space and give it a try. And lo and behold, many of them found they did it better than I would have. And that’s what you want to do you want to find how to go hire people who are better than you in their particular area. And, trust them to do the work.

Laurie Barkman
Trust them to do the work. Absolutely. Yeah. When I came into your groups and did a workshop, the workshop was about strategic growth and what makes your business more valuable, transferable and attractive to a potential buyer and we had a good three hour session. This is you know, We got to a good level of depth and it covered a lot of ground. I want to talk about that workshop, I want to talk about the transition content as it relates to what we were just saying about growth. Yes, because one of the main messages that I know I communicated, and I’m sure you do as well, is that a owner dependent business is not very transferable and will have less value and all the hard work that they’ve, you know, been doing all these years, they won’t see a reward for for that. So let’s talk about transition. Let’s talk about this idea of how can a CEO or a business owner think about growth in the standpoint of enabling the organization to thrive without them and position them for the future?

Rick Vanasse
Yes, well, I think the light bulb for me went off in your workshop, Laurie. And, and what I’ve seen and I we actually discuss, we discuss in our group meetings, and I discuss it in my one on ones with my CEOs is that just the notion of transitioning, is provides a framework that forces the CEO, and if they’re a business owner, just as even more so it forces them into the third balcony, maybe the fourth balcony. All of a sudden, they’re having to step back, not just about the business, but life. And they’re, and they’re looking at this, from a very holistic perspective. What do I want to do? Where do I want to go? And so what I have found is that the transition discussion, and putting together a Strategic Transition Plan, just like we have a strategic business plan, creates a conversation with my CEOs that is helping them to go to the balcony, helping them to work on the business, and get out of the business a little bit. And when they start doing that, they start asking questions like, well, what is the succession? What do I want to do? Do I want to continue to own it, but really not coming to work every day? Or do I want to hand it to a family member? Or do I want to create an ESOP? Or do I want, I’ve identified two or three of my people who I want to succeed or don’t want to sell the business. So all of those are options and understanding how those business decisions interrelate with your personal desires, for the future in your life and your values, is a really important conversation. And here’s the good news. The more we can have transition conversations, the more they’re getting out of the day to day and guess what happens, the business can grow. Because other people are being empowered, and other people are taking on the responsibility. And you’re thinking about the successor, and you’re going out and hiring that really good one that you might have not spent that extra $50,000 a year for. And the business grows. So the irony is transition. Strategy, strategic thinking and planning helps you to grow the business, because it’s forcing you to be thinking at a much higher level, and a much more strategic level, then, perhaps you were thinking.

Laurie Barkman
Yeah, and what I loved also about your groups is that there were people who were ready to roll up their sleeves and say, I’m going to take action, they learned something at, you know, looking at people’s feedback from the workshops. It’s clear, everybody learned something. But not everybody takes action. Right. One of the statistics you might recall, as I shared with everyone is we are 42% more likely to achieve our goals if we write them down. Oh, and so who took the baton forward? A couple of folks. And I want to we won’t mention them by name will protect the innocent here, but just to recognize them and give them a little shout out. I think we could just share these as case study examples of how can people move forward and not just hear my podcast and not just read my book and not just talk to other CEOs, but how do we actually do something? And one of your Vistage members is an absolute what I would call mountain climber. He is all about growth. He is all in. Age wise, he’s in his 40s and life stage-wise, business-wise, the business has been around I think, five, six years. Is that accurate?

Rick Vanasse
Yes.

Laurie Barkman
Yeah. So he’s a Go Go, right? He’s all about learning and loves to learn, loves to think about how what he’s learning can be applied to his business. And he and I are focused on not just growth, but growth, it’s going to drive enterprise value. And I think the key thing for some owners is that not every dollar of revenue or dollar of profit is worth the same.

Rick Vanasse
That’s right.

Laurie Barkman
An example would be project revenue versus recurring revenue, that’s probably the most impactful change, we could make an our business. And that’s a big thing that he and I are starting to really work on and shape for what they have as a service business, not a product business. But how can we productize our service? How can we create a recurring revenue model? And we’re at the very, very front end of these conversations, but I know his wheels are turning. And these these concepts about creating enterprise value, people say, “Oh, well, I’m not ready to sell my business. So I’m not going to work on transition planning.” Well, listen to this example, where here’s this guy, he’s clearly not ready to sell his company. He’s in growth mode. But he knows it’s all about what can we put in place now to build enterprise value for the future?

Rick Vanasse
Right, right. Well, I think it’s a great example of, of people stepping back, looking at the whole, asking those personal life questions, and understanding that those are important questions relative to your business. And to begin exploring what could be and as you said, start writing it down. And guess what, you can always change it? And I think it’s, it’s, once someone says, Well, I know I don’t want to sell my business. So I don’t need to think about that. Well, the you just stopped the train. And all the learning has stopped, all the innovation has stopped. And the end, exploring options that you didn’t even know existed has stopped. Whereas saying, Yeah, you’re right, Laurie, we’re all going to exit someday. And why not begin thinking about that, from the very beginning, and what that might mean, and what the options are. And what that does is it just opens things up in terms of how you choose to run your business, who you choose to bring in and put around you. And that’s really the key. And if you’re able to bring people around you that can really run the, maybe better than you can run the business. Now you have a different choice, you have new options, maybe do I keep the ownership but let these folks run it, and then take my time and energy and the wealth that’s been created, and start this other business over here, that is ready to roll. So I think to not do strategic transition planning is as frankly, as dangerous as not doing strategic business planning. And like, I don’t know what general pattern, let’s call general pattern, but like they all say, you know, once in the battle, you deal with the issues at hand. But you’re going to go in far more prepared with far more options, if you’ve thought through what what your what your plan would be. So I hope that reinforces what you’re saying.

Laurie Barkman
Absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s also reinforcing my book. If there’s one. Yeah, that’s a commercial for my book. That’s it.

Rick Vanasse
It’s a great book. And one thing I want to mention about your book, Laurie, and that came out of the workshop is and several of our folks really caught this. So a lot of the transition work they you discussed is about the business transition. And it’s about ownership, and it’s about succession. But there’s also the personal side to it. And I think you touch that in the book, and so many of the folks that we have brought in and that we speak with it’s you know, it’s a it’s an investment banking perspective, which is beyond the financials, obviously, but rarely does it touch the personal side. And I know another one of my CEOs that you’re working with, who is on the business for 20 years, is looking at what do I do the business could probably sell it to a vertical could sell it to a private equity and get lots of money fairly quickly. But that’s just who he is, that’s not as heart and soul. And, and so he’s begun to explore this personal journey of transition with you and his wife. And I just, you know, when I check in with a monthly and ask how things are going on, it’s just such a powerful story for everyone else in the group to hear this linkage of who you are, is a big part of not just how you run your business, but how you choose to own your business, and you choose to do with it. So I really appreciate the work that you bring on the personal side, as well as the business side.

Laurie Barkman
Thank you. It’s eye opening for people when they start to talk about themselves. It’s harder.

Rick Vanasse
Yeah.

Laurie Barkman
When talking about the business, they’re interrelated,

Rick Vanasse
Of course. Right.

Laurie Barkman
But when I work with a client, and like the one you mentioned, and he and his wife, and I think it’s a wonderful example, too, because she’s not an owner, he’s 100%, owner of the business, he brought out his partner, but she’s an owner and a partner in the purest sense. And I just love that I meet with both of them at the same time, they’re both doing their homework. They’re both reading the book, you know, it’s, so I want to give them a shout out for the true partnership that they have as a married couple. The exploration that owners have, not just with me, but with themselves, is it takes time. And I do this for a reason I, you know, I say, Look, this is a process because it take you know, eight, nine months, not just 30 days for reason, because we talked about something and then they think about it, and maybe they change their mind, and then we come back to it. And we reprioritize as you said, we write it down. But we can make changes to it.

Rick Vanasse
Absolutely.

Laurie Barkman
You know, a plan can be flexible. And that’s what this is all about. A lot of people, oh, I’m not going to do transition planning, because I’m not ready. Well, transition planning is about getting ready. So that whenever you have life coming at you you’re prepared. And another piece of the personal side, I think that I didn’t really talk about it in the workshop, but I do for sure talk about it with with these clients, is the contingency planning the what if side of life that we really don’t want to happen, but what if that happens, and then who will own your business after you becomes really the surviving spouse, or some other mechanism if you create that. And so just like we want to prepare our business, for this continuous growth and value, we are also I’m encouraging my clients to think about the risks. And how do we manage these risks in the business? But then there’s these personal and economic risks with the business, especially if you’re 100%. Owner? Yes. And it’s a little uncomfortable, I gotta say, but it’s forcing people to, you know, here’s a basic question, right? Who has checked signing authority in your company?

Rick Vanasse
Great, right, great question.

Laurie Barkman
And the answer is you.

Rick Vanasse
You’re the only one.

Laurie Barkman
You’re the only one. If something happens to you, then okay, now you’re, you know, you’re dealing with the courts and probate and all this stuff, and what a pain and people. So I don’t want to bring the conversation down, will elevate it back up to happier things. But I guess the point that I want to make with you, Rick, is I think that there it is, it is a holistic perspective, right isn’t just one thing. And it isn’t just one sitting to have one conversation and say, Oh, I’m done. And that’s the encouragement not only in the book, but also, you know, with our client work and the work you’re doing with the groups to hold them accountable. I think that’s the other big thing I really appreciate about Vistage is that because you’re meeting once a month, you’re not only one on one, but as a group, you have a continuous opportunity to be checking in. And yes, we talked about it six months ago, but we’re not forgetting that you committed. Right? And I’m gonna hold you accountable. I do that too. With clients. That’s the other, you know, thing that I that I can help with, of course, right. And so let’s not get them to stand in their way. Let’s help them and encourage them. And I think you’re doing a great job of that.

Rick Vanasse
I’d like to just build off that. You know, one of the aspects and the kind of the magic of Vistage. If you look at Vistage groups over the last 65 years, the average member is it’s seven years and that includes the 20 or 30% who decide in the first year or two that it’s not right for them. So typically, if if you hit that three year point, odds are, this is part of who you are and part of your business. is and what the advantages of that are and people really become friends, they. So it’s not just, it’s not only holding each other accountable, but it’s really getting to know one another. And knowing that that other person is there, their perspective will be there. And, and to support each other through these changes, these evolutions and, and as a member comes in and says, you know, I know I was talking to you last time about selling to private equity. But this time, you know, I’m really thinking twice about it. Here’s my latest thoughts, what do you think? That’s not only important feedback for that individual. But everyone around the table is learning from that. And, and so it’s it is seeing that, that evolutionary change of those, both the business strategic plans, as well as the transition plans, it is seeing that and witnessing that and being a part of that over time, that really makes the whole experience pretty unique, and pretty powerful. I mean, you don’t even get that on a on a corporate board, right? Public board. No, it’s all business and you have terms and you’re in and then you’re out, this is, this goes deeper than that. And it’s a different kind of accountability than what you see in a in a publicly held board. So it’s exciting.

Laurie Barkman
That’s exciting. Now, I appreciate that very much about about what you do and your leadership with Vistage. I want to I want to shift into action. You know, I like having actionable ideas for the audience. They’re listening to this. And they’re thinking, okay, what are some things that I should take away? What would you give us three pieces of advice?

Rick Vanasse
One is to very purposely set time aside to think about working on the business and what are those bigger strategic kinds of conversations, which definitely need to include transition? And it’s almost at the next level. So you know, first, you got to be thinking more strategically about the business, how do I grow it? Do I have the right people? How do we get the right people? How do I empower them? How do I get out of the way? And then the transition. Okay, what what, what is my long term plan? What is my long term agenda? So how do you do that, you need to start thinking about I ask all of my members, have you ever journaled and most have, at some point in their life, and so I encourage them, I said, start writing it down, you know, take 10 minutes in the morning, take 10 minutes, at the end of the day, whenever you can find the time with some solitude, and just put down on the left hand side of the page, draw line, left hand sides, the what. The right hand sides, the so what and why. And what oftentimes happens is the the what column becomes shorter, and the so what column becomes longer. And what people are doing is they’re reflecting, they’re stepping back, they’re thinking, and all of the strategic conversations we’re talking about are, you know, huge parts of the other side. So number one, actually take the time, think about it, write it down. And, and then I’d encourage you to share it with somebody. And so if you’re a part of a Vistage group, great, that’s a great place to be sharing this, other people be expecting it. And looking forward to hearing that story. If not, hire Laurie, brings Laurie in and I think you can provide enormous service for people to be be doing that kind of thinking and reflection.

Laurie Barkman
Yeah, reflection, making the time working on the business and not just in the business as a great message. Rick, is there a quote that you would like to share? I ask everyone if they have a favorite quote.

Rick Vanasse
I actually do. And you’re gonna smile because it’s yours. I’ll never forget when you came into the meeting, and the first slide you put up at least that’s how I remember it is a wonderful question. And your challenge to the group was that “There’s one thing I can guarantee you all, you will all be exiting your business someday. And the question is, have you thought about it? And do you have a plan for your transition as you do a plan for your business strategic plan for your business”, and not a single hand went up. And I knew who around the table had been thinking about it, because I had been in conversations with them. But there was no structure for it. There was no framework for doing that kind of thinking, both personally and the implications for the business. And I think what you’re really providing my members, as you meet with them, what you’re providing in your workshop, is that structure, that framework, the kinds of questions that we all need to be asking, as we’re thinking about the transition we want to make someday. In our business. So that’s the quote, you know, wow, one thing…

Laurie Barkman
Wow, that is special. Yeah. For sharing that back, it’s amazing when someone is quoting you back to you..

Rick Vanasse
No, I mean, I’m serious. I, I have one of the questions I ask prospective members in the selection interview, is, I love to ask them. So what do you plan to be doing in 5,10, 15 years? In it is amazing how frequently, there’s a long pause. And someone will say, you know, I’ve never even thought about that. That we’re all so busy in our day to day that I’ve never stopped to think about where do I want to be? And so it’s a, they really appreciate the question. And that allows me then to launch into how that is part of what we discuss. And here’s why that’s important for you, here’s why it’s important for your business. And guess what, unless you’re starting to think about that stuff, your business isn’t gonna grow. So it’s kind of a, it’s a little bit of a stretch, because everyone’s thinking, what’s my sales and marketing plan? Well, that’s important, too. But guess what growing your business requires you to be thinking about how you get out of the business, how you extricate yourself, as the CEO from the business. And like we used to say to my old boss, I said, you know, when if we can get you on the golf course, two or three days a week, we know things are going right. And the response was, you’re absolutely right. It’s not because he wanted to play more golf, which he did. But it was really because that meant we he could back away. And, and things were running really well. And guess what? His mind started thinking and thinking about what’s next. So that was his reflection time is on the golf course, about what’s next? Where do I want to take this, this business? And if he’s busy dealing with issues, he’s not thinking about that stuff, or she’s not thinking about that stuff. And that’s the role of the CEO. It’s the unique role of the CEO. And no one else has the responsibility to do that. Others can also do it. And you can engage with them or IRA but the only one who has the responsibility to be thinking about where’s this business going, is the CEO. And but you got to make time.

Laurie Barkman
You do, you do have to make the time. Thank you for making the time. And thank you. Thank you with me today. If people want to reach out and get in touch with you to learn more, what’s a good way to do that.

Rick Vanasse
So my email, Rick.vanesse@vistagechair.com would probably be the best way to reach me.

Laurie Barkman
Great. And I’ll also include some links in the show notes so people can find you easily. Rick, thank you so much for being with me today on Succession Stories. It’s an always an honor to talk with you. And I want to say thank you so much to our listeners. Please make sure to hit subscribe wherever you listen, and please leave a rating and review. We really appreciate it. Rick, again, thank you so much for coming on Succession Stories, and we’ll be in touch soon.

Rick Vanasse
Thanks, Laurie.

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